"confirmation" of shows

Tour history discoveries & ephemera
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intertwoven
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"confirmation" of shows

Post by intertwoven »

Ok, here's my idea to deal with confirmation: It's a 10 point criteria, and there would ideally be a "status bar" on a show's entry page. Admins would check boxes for the 10 areas. And so if a show had 6 things checked, it'd be 60% confirmed.
Here are the points, in ascending order of their importance, imo, (though they are unweighted in my plan.)

fan recollection
photos
recording
article (non-review mention or no-date review)
concert listing
tour t-shirt or itinerary
flyer/poster
ticket stub
official release/liner notes
dated live review

Under this plan, not many shows would get 100% confirmed. (Even a show like Roxy 1/26/87 didn't have a t-shirt, right?)
But still, it's an idea and shows different levels of confirmation. I think it should ultimately still be the admins' call as to whether a show is marked "confirmed" in the gig list.. but the points would ideally be displayed on the show's page, so visitors will know why it's considered confirmed or not.
Let me know what you guys think.. and if it sounds like a good idea, Erik, if this is something you could implement without much trouble.

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Re: "confirmation" of shows

Post by tvrec »

Good, comprehensive suggestions.

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Mike
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Re: "confirmation" of shows

Post by Mike »

I appreciate that you're thinking about this and coming up with some ideas but I don't think that works.
The reason is if you only had a dated review of a show it would only be 10% confirmed.
For my money a dated review is the ultimate confirmation.

As I mentioned in The Barn thread Erik and I spent some time discussing this last weekend.
Although we haven't yet implemented it a new status of "probable" is most likely going to be added.
Then shows where we have tickets, newsprint ads, flyers, posters, but not a review will have a place.

It doesn't even have to be probable but I think for our needs probable is the best way to go.

Main Entry: 1prob·a·ble
Pronunciation: \ˈprä-bə-bəl, ˈprä(b)-bəl\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin probabilis commendable, probable, from probare to test, approve, prove — more at prove
Date: 1606

1 : supported by evidence strong enough to establish presumption but not proof <a probable hypothesis>
2 : establishing a probability <probable evidence>
3 : likely to be or become true or real <probable outcome>

If you can think of a better word for a shows status that's not 100% confirmed hit me with it.

Do you see where I'm coming from?
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helicine
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Re: "confirmation" of shows

Post by helicine »

What about instead using a "point system" for confirmation instead? That way we could weight certain criteria much heavier than other criteria - for example, taking Gavin's criteria list:

fan recollection - 5pts
photos - 5pts
recording - 10pts
article (non-review mention or no-date review) - 25pts
concert listing - 25pts
tour t-shirt or itinerary - 30pts
flyer/poster - 30pts
ticket stub - 50pts
official release/liner notes - 50pts
dated live review - 50pts

We'd also have to decide about multiple instances in a single category, etc.

We'd also have do address how it applies to more recent shows, etc.

If we did something like this - and kept it separate from the debunked/questionable/disputed criteria, it would be a lot easier to implement. Existing "confirmed" shows would remain confirmed, but we could apply a "confirmed level rating" or something and figure out a way to display it.
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intertwoven
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Re: "confirmation" of shows

Post by intertwoven »

Yeah, I like the points system idea. So like, the points would transfer to a percent..? So once a show accumulates 100 points, it's considered 100% confirmed. (though even then, it's not an absolute certainty, it just says that we're pretty darn sure about it.)

A show with a high score can still be disputed, of course, such as in the case of 3/29/89 Seattle which has liner note confirmation and a recording, but I still think it's a mislabel of 4/17/89 Seattle.

And while dated reviews are usually pretty solid, I've seen instances of a typo/mistake regarding the exact date several times, so I don't think they should give a show an automatic no-doubt-about-it confirmation.

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Re: "confirmation" of shows

Post by intertwoven »

so, like..

confirmation level:
1 - 39 = possible
40 - 99 = probable
100+ = confirmed

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Re: "confirmation" of shows

Post by Mike »

I'm sorry guys but in my opinion a point system just doesn't work.
You could have everything on the list Gavin posted except a review of the show and it still not be 100% confirmed.

A dated review is telling you about a show that happened.
Everything else is telling you about a show that's suppose to happen.

I'm very against using a point system for confirmation.
What we have in place right now is pretty good but with a status addition of probable we'd be golden.

Just my 2 cents.
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Re: "confirmation" of shows

Post by helicine »

Handsome Mike wrote:I'm sorry guys but in my opinion a point system just doesn't work.
You could have everything on the list Gavin posted except a review of the show and it still not be 100% confirmed.

A dated review is telling you about a show that happened.
Everything else is telling you about a show that's suppose to happen.

I'm very against using a point system for confirmation.
What we have in place right now is pretty good but with a status addition of probable we'd be golden.

Just my 2 cents.
Mike, I think you missed my suggested change on this, so I'll be a bit more verbose - again, what I am suggesting is levels of confirmation - not a percentage of confirmation.

I'd like to leave the whole debunked/disputed/questionable/unconfirmed designation bit alone - that to me is for use when we have little to nothing to state that a show did indeed take place

a single item of ephemera would still confirm a show, confirmed shows would get a "confirmation rating" based on what info we have to say a show is confirmed - it could be on a 100pt scale with different items bringing in a certain number of points.

ex: Ticket Stub (50pts) + Tour Poster (30pts) = 80pts -> Confirmation Score: 80/100

Some shows would easily reach 100pts, others would not. This is a lot different than a check mark system, which I think is overkill, as I see no reason to take time to dig up more "confirmation" bits on shows that have enough other evidence to show that they've happened.

I think we'd also want to be a bit more specific in giving points. Show items > tour items. Reputable published items > blogs, emails and fan anecdotes.

Also, while I don't object to awarding additional points (10max) for recordings toward a show, I would say that is stringent upon additional more tangible ephemera (i.e just a recording gets zero points, but a recording of a show w/ a poster would get the poster score + 10pts for the recording)

Additionally for shows that have multiples of the same item, I'd say give them 10pts/ea with a max of 20 additional points. So 1 ticket = 50pts, 2 tickets = 60pts, 3+ tickets = 70pts

Furthermore, item points should be seen as "max points" for each item. So while we may give 50pts max for a ticket stub, if the scan/photo is of mediocre quality, we could only award say 35pts.

So in short
A single poster, ticket or article would still conform a show - it would simply get a designated score. Shows w/ multiple items confirming a show would get a higher score. Once a show gets a 100 or higher score, we have no need to *seek* more confirmation bits, but obviously would gladly enter them as we get them simply for informational sources.

If we did do this, I'd want to spend considerable time coming to an agreed detailed scoring system and have us put it through the paces before implementing it.

That's just my take on this, I'm open to suggestions/alterations/etc.
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Mike
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Re: "confirmation" of shows

Post by Mike »

Hey guys, I've read and reread this thread several times now and I'm trying to understand the need to implement this proposed point system but I'm having a hard time understanding the value of it.

I'm not going to go against the majority but I think what we have in place at the moment is pretty dam good.
With an additional status of "probable" it could be made even better.

I guess if I got to go along with a point system then no show without an accepted review can score 100% period.
I still don't feel my previously posted concerns about this have been adequately addressed.
In addiction to those I've posted I also don't see how this points system takes advantage of my previous chats with the band and my talks with Dayle Gloria in regard to The Scream shows.

I certainly feel those are important and should weigh in the mix somehow.

At the end of the day I go to great lengths before I add a show to the tour dates section.
We have this section of the forum where we can and do discuss shows most of the time before they're added.
We have our recently implemented status update that I personally like very much.
I dunno I just don't see the need for anything other than an additional status.
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intertwoven
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Re: "confirmation" of shows

Post by intertwoven »

Maybe points and percentages don't matter. I'd just like all the "evidence" for a show happening to be mentioned on the show's entry page. People can see it and decide for themselves. I don't think we really need "probable" added. And as I've said in another thread, I don't agree with dated live reviews being handed down from Moses as undeniable proof of a show.. journalists and editors are still susceptible to typos and mistakes. I've seen it many times.

I just clicked on a random unconfirmed show..
http://janesaddiction.org/tour/show/jan ... 3-26/1490/
Jane's Addiction - March 26, 1987 - Stratus, Spring Valley, CA
Date: March 26, 1987
Location: Stratus, Spring Valley, CA
Recorded: No / Unknown
Status: Unconfirmed
Type: Concert
Artwork:

Show Information:

Faster Pussycat opened.

Thanks go out to Mike for uncovering this show.
I'd like to know why this show is here. That's mainly why I liked the "check box" idea with the 10 possible areas for confirmation. I'm guessing this was a "fan recollection" otherwise there'd be artwork or a recording listed, right? But yeah, give people the evidence you have for a show happening and they can decide if they think it happened.
As far as officially marking a show as "confirmed" or not, that's just your informed decision, Mike. Maybe it's a mistake trying to make that a mathematical/scientific thing.

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