Tonka 2 final tracks' source?

[helicine]

Has anyone ever figured out where the last 4 tracks from the Tonka 2 (aka, disc 2 on Live & Profane & the CD version of Mountain Songs) came from? All my CDs are sitting in my office, and I really don't feel like going into work this weekend

[intertwoven]

not definitively, no. discussed this at xiola a couple months ago.. http://xiola.org/bored/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=15508

Seems as if there are only a few at the show too....not much of a crowd. After Then She Did...you here like one person cheer...it's very odd.

yeah, another indication that it was probably an earlier show.. likely opening for another band.

crazy idea, but I'm now thinking about how some boots have a never-happened date listed as a source (not necessarily for these 4 tracks, but still): Oct 15, 1987 Dallas, TX
[see.. ]
The closest match we have to that not-real show is this:
11/27/1987 - Arcadia Theater, Dallas, TX
[opened for Love & Rockets]
http://janesaddiction.org/tour/tour_det ... ourID=1492
ja.org says it was recorded, but I don't have it nor recall seeing it on anyone's list. Could this be the mystery show? We know that just a month before, both No One's Leaving and Then She Did were being played in the same set (10-17-87 Coach House). Plus they were opening, so that would explain why they don't get much crowd response. And it might be where the whole "Dallas '87" mislabel came from. Or maybe I'm full of shit. But it's a theory. Anybody have the 11-27-87 recording who could confirm or deny?

[Charles]

Ahhhhhh the 'mystery show'. This one has plagued me for a long ass time. Filth mentioned that the recording is somewhat fast and I would agree. Perry's voice does seem a bit high.
And if I were to take a guess on what show it is, it would be Gavin's for sure...

In a way tho, it sounds like a show that could be from 90' in a small club in Europe maybe? That leg of the tour.
But if those boots came out before 90' then that would rule those out.

Too bad we cant get a hold of these boot company's that made the Live and Profane's and the Live Too's. We could just ask.

[helicine]

that tangentially brings up a good point, when some of these boots surfaced, which for the most part we'll never know... especially since we're talking ~20 years ago for some of this shit, but for what it is worth

I think got Head Shop back in 1991 - late spring I think, which would be a pretty quick turnaround from when the source show took place.

Last Fixx came out in late 1996 or early 1997 - I know it took for fucking ever to show up after I ordered it from KTS, and that they had it announced on their site for quite awhile before you could order it.

Castaic Lake appeared really fast after the show, I'm pretty sure I picked that up Sept of '92

It think I got Song List and the Psi Com "mohini" boot in late 1991 or early 1992

[intertwoven]

Live & Profane single disc says 1992. Live & Profane double disc has a copyright date of 1991 (probably mid 1991, since the liner notes end mentioning the MSG show [4/24/91] and it includes a flyer from 2/10/91). Since the "Tonka" single discs are basically like bootleg "advance promos", I would venture to date them 1990.

on the double disc version, it says "produced by Carl Punjonian and Dylanger Michaels, Totonka Music, LA, CA 213-205-0549."

sure, it's been 20 years, but give the number a call and ask.

Like Erik says, bootlegs sometimes had a quick turnaround. And while for years I assumed this mystery show was, like Charles suggested, from a fall '90 European show (late August to mid October), I now think it's probably from the Love & Rockets '87 tour.
I'm just now looking at the dates for those '90 shows.. I think it's safe to say there aren't any missing shows from that period. And there are only 5 shows that don't have known recordings: 10/01/1990 Scotland, 10/08/1990 Belgium, and 3 German shows. So it would have to be one of those, if it were a European '90 show.

I heard that the source for a lot of this stuff (the Totonka releases in particular) were tapes originally stolen from Stephen back in the day. Not sure if there's truth to that, but could be. Or maybe just a friend who was shared some cool stuff, and then either willingly or unwittingly let it end up on bootlegs.
Look at all the photos in the booklets for the Totonka CDs.. most of those must come from someone close to the band, not like typical bootlegs where they just yank a couple pics from a magazine or maybe some random live photos. Paraphernalia in particular has lots of "on the road" photos that I'm fairly positive have never been published elsewhere. Must've been from a crew member or someone very close to the band.
But the point is, these recordings were likely originally provided by Stephen. I think it's more likely he put 2 old shows together on a tape, rather than mix a Ritual show with a '86 show.

Let's look at the Totonka releases.
#1 - Tonka 1 / Live & Profane (1st cd, 2/14/87 – Scream at the Embassy Hotel, Los Angeles, CA)
#2 - Tonka 2 / Live & Profane (2nd cd, 11/13/86 – Pyramid, The, Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA + 4 mystery tracks)
#3 - Song List (demos April 01, 1987 - Lillian Way Studios, Los Angeles, CA)
#4 - Live & Insane (12/19/1990 – Hollywood Palladium, Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA)
#5 - Paraphernalia (various live and studio, '87-'88)

So, only 1 recording from the Ritual era.

As an aside, while it's lame if someone did indeed "steal" these recordings from Perk, I sure am glad this stuff got out there, because these 5 CDs are definitely all in the top 10 of Jane's bootlegs. (sure some have been made obsolete now because of A Cabinet of Curiosities, but in the many, many years before that came out, they were the shit!). As fans we sometimes take them for granted and complain that the official rarity collection releases don't have much we don't already have.. and that's thanks to Totonka putting this stuff out way back then.

[Mike]

The closest match we have to that not-real show is this:
11/27/1987 - Arcadia Theater, Dallas, TX
[opened for Love & Rockets]
http://janesaddiction.org/tour/tour_det ... ourID=1492
ja.org says it was recorded, but I don't have it nor recall seeing it on anyone's list. Could this be the mystery show? We know that just a month before, both No One's Leaving and Then She Did were being played in the same set (10-17-87 Coach House). Plus they were opening, so that would explain why they don't get much crowd response. And it might be where the whole "Dallas '87" mislabel came from. Or maybe I'm full of shit. But it's a theory. Anybody have the 11-27-87 recording who could confirm or deny?

The 11/27/1987 - Arcadia Theater, Dallas, TX date and recording info both come from Bill's list.

11/27/87 Arcadia Theater: Dallas, TX
unknown mics -> Sony WM-R2 (not in circulation)

http://forums.janesaddiction.org/viewto ... =35&t=1389

I don't have it and I don't know if Bill has it or had just been in contact with the person who does.

[Mike]

Ahhhhhh the 'mystery show'. This one has plagued me for a long ass time. Filth mentioned that the recording is somewhat fast and I would agree. Perry's voice does seem a bit high.
And if I were to take a guess on what show it is, it would be Gavin's for sure...

In a way tho, it sounds like a show that could be from 90' in a small club in Europe maybe? That leg of the tour.
But if those boots came out before 90' then that would rule those out.

Too bad we cant get a hold of these boot company's that made the Live and Profane's and the Live Too's. We could just ask.

I've been listening for these four tracks in a known source for months years now and have found nothing.
Charles I imagine you Intertwoven and I know filth have more shows to check than me but we might not ever know the correct date of this recording.

Who knows maybe a show will pop up on dime or some place and the pieces will fall into place one day.

[Charles]

The thing thats weird, is that the band seems really really tight in this recording. That is why I guessed 90' and not 87'
In 87' they were more sloppy good, if that makes any sense. 1990 they had a tightness that was even better than 91' in my opinion. They seem like two totally different era's of the band. Especially Daves and Perks playing. Now I'm not ruling the Dallas 87' show out at all here, I'm just brain storming...